A Voice from the field – An Interview with Rebekah Pokura-Ward
Who are you and how did you get into IA?
I am Rebekah Pokura-Ward. Around about the time when the Resource Management Act was coming in I finished my BSc in geography and went into law school. It was really different to science, and I got interested in Maori land law, property law and what they called environmental law - resource management law. I got a scholarship to do a Masters, and at that time they had just introduced the Masters of Environmental Science at the University of Auckland. It was a two year programme, the first year was essentially about assessing environmental effects, understanding what that was about, plus a little bit of the legal framework that governs and affects management and I thought to myself, I really like this, this is great. I also started getting really interested in the interaction between people, infrastructure and the environment. At the time my parents were living in Fiji, and I had to pick a topic for my Masters thesis and decided to do a comparison between what was called EIA back here in New Zealand and what they do in Fiji. I had been bought up in Fiji in my early years so I had a real passion for its environment and people - making sure there were good roads and hospitals and things like that and seeing how those elements inter-related. That is really where I first got the real interest in impact assessment and what it can bring to society. My study taught me how valuable a robust environmental assessment process, if that is an integral part of any major project, probably even minor projects, any project, then the long term outcomes are going to be a lot better for everybody. In Fiji, although they had environmental impact assessments operating, there was no requirement to enforce them so it was more of a tick box exercise. Whereas in New Zealand we were looking much more at making sure you had conditions on resource consents; that you monitor those conditions; and so New Zealand’s processes were a lot more robust and made a real difference than in Fiji. That is what got me interested and I am still really passionate and interested about it, because taking a more long term, holistic view through EIA or AEE it plays such an important role in our wellbeing, now and into the future. I see it as a really important tool in the work I do.
How you are using IA in your current job?
Before I came into my new role here in NZTA, I worked on some projects in Fiji, and more recently I have been working really closely with iwi and developing cultural impact assessments, looking at what are really important values that need to be recognised and protected. These have shaped my perspective and practice. For example, the way we go about impact assessment in New Zealand is probably well meaning in many ways, but setting standards or applying criteria of assessment, that may be quite workable here in New Zealand, but may not be applicable in the Pacific, particularly when it comes to traditional, cultural or ceremonial practices. I think there are some core principles and some best practice that we can apply, but cultural impact assessment processes, much like my Fiji work experience, illustrate the importance of incorporating a value base to impact assessment. It's not about preventing development, but doing it in a way that recognises and provides for cultural values and cultural practices, even in a modern context, can be recognised and celebrated and integrated into some of these projects that we are working on.
Now at NZTA, I am working on some major road projects, and one of the important things is making sure we work really closely with the community not just consulting with a few outspoken individuals. Doing a social impact assessment, you are really taking a very broad approach and for EIA you need to understand your baseline, whether it’s an environmental baseline or cultural or social baseline, and in order to get that social baseline or that cultural baseline you really have to engage with the community to actually understand it rather than just reading books or just talking to a few people or just doing desktop type studies.
I guess the first thing is understanding that community, what is that community, who is that community, what was it historically? It is looking at the past, the present and the future, what people’s aspirations are, who they are, where they go to school, what is important to them, it is almost like doing a community values assessment, that is what I call it, and that helps provide that baseline as to the current community and what the future may be. And then from that, once you have got a really sound social baseline you can then bring your project or activity or whatever it is into the mix and then you can say, what is your response to this new road coming in or this new shopping centre coming or new prison coming in to your community? Tell us how this will affect all those values that you have told us are important to you. So you almost don’t start with the project, you start with the people and then you bring the project alongside and work it in with social, environmental and cultural values.
Then the next step really is once you have got people’s feedback on what the impact will be, you are also working with a whole range of other specialists so they might be noise specialists or traffic specialists or water quality specialists so you are also getting scientific input as well. These varying opinions are all thrown into the mix and then you look at how or where there are adverse effects or negative impacts to mitigate, and I think it important to be working with the community to get their ideas as to how to mitigate and manage these. I always think, we do these projects, they are about people for people so the people that live there should be part of the solution.
I think if I could pick one thing it is - don’t assume as a practitioner or a professional in the particular field knows everything, it is important to be working with other practitioners in order to identify what those effects are, but you also need to be working with the community that is affected by it and together you can then identify what the scale and extent of those impacts are and probably and more importantly you can work together in managing and monitoring those effects. That is what I think is important and we as practitioners need to be much more of.
I’m doing the old Mangere Bridge replacement at the moment, and have just resolved the appeal. There has been a huge amount of community involvement in that project. Because Onehunga and old Mangere Bridge township areas have such rich heritage and culture we need to make sure that the design and the replacement of the bridge respect that. The community basically said it’s not just a bridge connecting A to B, it’s a destination, it’s almost like a park for them… an important inter-generational asset spanning over 100 years. They are saying you can actually make it even better, with a little bit more investment, by working more closely us and with Auckland Council, you can actually future-proof this bridge so it can lift up, get bigger boats underneath, use this along with other projects happening in the area to open up and clean up the inner harbour that has been neglected for so long and actually have something for future generations. I don’t know where we will end up, but it’s important that we listen to the community and work with them. So that’s an example of the sort of work that I am doing.
What are the challenges faced by IA that you see as important?
Probably the issue I am facing at the moment is, it’s getting others that are not working in this area specifically to really understand and embrace the value that a robust AEE or EIA process can bring to the ultimate project outcomes. There are still a number of people that just see it as a process we have to go through to tick the boxes, what is the minimum we need to do to get consent, it can be seen as a bit of an obstacle to development.
Often there is a challenge in that, it’s not just about managing and mitigating effects but it’s also about what are the positive outcomes that this can bring and so it can be a win win, and you can find opportunities and enhancements and so the community come away with something better. So I think it is a really valuable tool that can be applied right through the life of a project if it is embraced and done well and you have got enough stroppy personalities like me on the project that will just keep pushing for better outcomes
The other barrier that I have challenged is just making sure that the community voice is a big part of that process as well, because sometimes people working on projects go “well what does it matter what the community think, we have our experts, we know best” ... I guess my first thing is, I would say, take yourself out of the role that you are in and put yourself in the shoes of the community or those people, how would you feel if that was happening to you? Yes we have experts and of course they are important to AEE but the community are the experts about their community and we need to recognise that and recognise that into our assessments.
And then what you can do is say, well here are some examples of projects where we have had a really robust process and here’s some of the outcomes that we have achieved. It is often no more project cost or marginally more cost and we have got a well engaged community that have meaningfully participated in the process , we have managed to reduce appeals going to the Environment Court and it becomes in a way an award winning project – this is developing best practice leading the way, , …..You can celebrate that as a wonderful engineering project or wonderful whatever type of project it maybe, and when the community are with you and participating in the solutions it is a win win.
How could NZAIA help you address those challenges? What can we provide, what resources, what makes us more relevant?
I think it is great that there is actually an organisation that has members like yourself and others, professional people that see the value in this, so the more people that we get together promoting the value of best practice in this area, it can only gain momentum. We can support each other as practitioners so I think there is not only the internal support but there’s the external… telling others there is actually a group of us, there is a resource here, I’m not just a lone voice in this area. So I think it is making practitioners available to share ideas of best practice and work together in the area, that’s where I would be. We can learn from each other.
If you are having challenges it’s great to be able to call out to some of the experienced practitioners and probably know you are not alone, it’s been done before and they will have some ideas to help you through.
It would be quite good to get some best practice examples of impact assessment in New Zealand, to get that up on to the website, describing a really good example or where there have been some really good outcomes that have been achieved through implementing good practice. And maybe some comparisons with other countries as well. It is quite nice to get together socially as well, I know the planning institute does it a lot.
It would be quite good to be quite open to new ideas, you have the purists, but you need all sorts, and I think it is about being receptive to new ideas as much as respectful to those who have the experience as they have been the ground breakers in the past, but you know there are some new ideas and things coming in and so it is being open to that as well.
I think it’s about, it’s just having that core body of practitioners there that are really passionate about what they do, working together, sharing best practice and bringing on some of the younger members or less experienced members of the profession, encouraging them to get on board too because that way you can influence others that we work with, our clients or colleagues.
I think some good training in impact assessment would be valuable. Di Buchan and James Baines, under EIANZ did a really really good, two-day course on doing social impact assessment and I think [NZAIA] could be offering more of those courses. That way you could say you are have had formal training in impact assessment, some sort of accreditation. That adds a lot of robustness to the process and gives it a bit of kudos as well … we do that for engagement, you become a sort of certified engagement practitioner, and you could easily do a similar thing here as well, think about that. Maybe we could maybe connect with IAP2, the Institute of Public Participation as that is really best practice about public engagement, which I see is an important part of a robust impact assessment process.
I am Rebekah Pokura-Ward. Around about the time when the Resource Management Act was coming in I finished my BSc in geography and went into law school. It was really different to science, and I got interested in Maori land law, property law and what they called environmental law - resource management law. I got a scholarship to do a Masters, and at that time they had just introduced the Masters of Environmental Science at the University of Auckland. It was a two year programme, the first year was essentially about assessing environmental effects, understanding what that was about, plus a little bit of the legal framework that governs and affects management and I thought to myself, I really like this, this is great. I also started getting really interested in the interaction between people, infrastructure and the environment. At the time my parents were living in Fiji, and I had to pick a topic for my Masters thesis and decided to do a comparison between what was called EIA back here in New Zealand and what they do in Fiji. I had been bought up in Fiji in my early years so I had a real passion for its environment and people - making sure there were good roads and hospitals and things like that and seeing how those elements inter-related. That is really where I first got the real interest in impact assessment and what it can bring to society. My study taught me how valuable a robust environmental assessment process, if that is an integral part of any major project, probably even minor projects, any project, then the long term outcomes are going to be a lot better for everybody. In Fiji, although they had environmental impact assessments operating, there was no requirement to enforce them so it was more of a tick box exercise. Whereas in New Zealand we were looking much more at making sure you had conditions on resource consents; that you monitor those conditions; and so New Zealand’s processes were a lot more robust and made a real difference than in Fiji. That is what got me interested and I am still really passionate and interested about it, because taking a more long term, holistic view through EIA or AEE it plays such an important role in our wellbeing, now and into the future. I see it as a really important tool in the work I do.
How you are using IA in your current job?
Before I came into my new role here in NZTA, I worked on some projects in Fiji, and more recently I have been working really closely with iwi and developing cultural impact assessments, looking at what are really important values that need to be recognised and protected. These have shaped my perspective and practice. For example, the way we go about impact assessment in New Zealand is probably well meaning in many ways, but setting standards or applying criteria of assessment, that may be quite workable here in New Zealand, but may not be applicable in the Pacific, particularly when it comes to traditional, cultural or ceremonial practices. I think there are some core principles and some best practice that we can apply, but cultural impact assessment processes, much like my Fiji work experience, illustrate the importance of incorporating a value base to impact assessment. It's not about preventing development, but doing it in a way that recognises and provides for cultural values and cultural practices, even in a modern context, can be recognised and celebrated and integrated into some of these projects that we are working on.
Now at NZTA, I am working on some major road projects, and one of the important things is making sure we work really closely with the community not just consulting with a few outspoken individuals. Doing a social impact assessment, you are really taking a very broad approach and for EIA you need to understand your baseline, whether it’s an environmental baseline or cultural or social baseline, and in order to get that social baseline or that cultural baseline you really have to engage with the community to actually understand it rather than just reading books or just talking to a few people or just doing desktop type studies.
I guess the first thing is understanding that community, what is that community, who is that community, what was it historically? It is looking at the past, the present and the future, what people’s aspirations are, who they are, where they go to school, what is important to them, it is almost like doing a community values assessment, that is what I call it, and that helps provide that baseline as to the current community and what the future may be. And then from that, once you have got a really sound social baseline you can then bring your project or activity or whatever it is into the mix and then you can say, what is your response to this new road coming in or this new shopping centre coming or new prison coming in to your community? Tell us how this will affect all those values that you have told us are important to you. So you almost don’t start with the project, you start with the people and then you bring the project alongside and work it in with social, environmental and cultural values.
Then the next step really is once you have got people’s feedback on what the impact will be, you are also working with a whole range of other specialists so they might be noise specialists or traffic specialists or water quality specialists so you are also getting scientific input as well. These varying opinions are all thrown into the mix and then you look at how or where there are adverse effects or negative impacts to mitigate, and I think it important to be working with the community to get their ideas as to how to mitigate and manage these. I always think, we do these projects, they are about people for people so the people that live there should be part of the solution.
I think if I could pick one thing it is - don’t assume as a practitioner or a professional in the particular field knows everything, it is important to be working with other practitioners in order to identify what those effects are, but you also need to be working with the community that is affected by it and together you can then identify what the scale and extent of those impacts are and probably and more importantly you can work together in managing and monitoring those effects. That is what I think is important and we as practitioners need to be much more of.
I’m doing the old Mangere Bridge replacement at the moment, and have just resolved the appeal. There has been a huge amount of community involvement in that project. Because Onehunga and old Mangere Bridge township areas have such rich heritage and culture we need to make sure that the design and the replacement of the bridge respect that. The community basically said it’s not just a bridge connecting A to B, it’s a destination, it’s almost like a park for them… an important inter-generational asset spanning over 100 years. They are saying you can actually make it even better, with a little bit more investment, by working more closely us and with Auckland Council, you can actually future-proof this bridge so it can lift up, get bigger boats underneath, use this along with other projects happening in the area to open up and clean up the inner harbour that has been neglected for so long and actually have something for future generations. I don’t know where we will end up, but it’s important that we listen to the community and work with them. So that’s an example of the sort of work that I am doing.
What are the challenges faced by IA that you see as important?
Probably the issue I am facing at the moment is, it’s getting others that are not working in this area specifically to really understand and embrace the value that a robust AEE or EIA process can bring to the ultimate project outcomes. There are still a number of people that just see it as a process we have to go through to tick the boxes, what is the minimum we need to do to get consent, it can be seen as a bit of an obstacle to development.
Often there is a challenge in that, it’s not just about managing and mitigating effects but it’s also about what are the positive outcomes that this can bring and so it can be a win win, and you can find opportunities and enhancements and so the community come away with something better. So I think it is a really valuable tool that can be applied right through the life of a project if it is embraced and done well and you have got enough stroppy personalities like me on the project that will just keep pushing for better outcomes
The other barrier that I have challenged is just making sure that the community voice is a big part of that process as well, because sometimes people working on projects go “well what does it matter what the community think, we have our experts, we know best” ... I guess my first thing is, I would say, take yourself out of the role that you are in and put yourself in the shoes of the community or those people, how would you feel if that was happening to you? Yes we have experts and of course they are important to AEE but the community are the experts about their community and we need to recognise that and recognise that into our assessments.
And then what you can do is say, well here are some examples of projects where we have had a really robust process and here’s some of the outcomes that we have achieved. It is often no more project cost or marginally more cost and we have got a well engaged community that have meaningfully participated in the process , we have managed to reduce appeals going to the Environment Court and it becomes in a way an award winning project – this is developing best practice leading the way, , …..You can celebrate that as a wonderful engineering project or wonderful whatever type of project it maybe, and when the community are with you and participating in the solutions it is a win win.
How could NZAIA help you address those challenges? What can we provide, what resources, what makes us more relevant?
I think it is great that there is actually an organisation that has members like yourself and others, professional people that see the value in this, so the more people that we get together promoting the value of best practice in this area, it can only gain momentum. We can support each other as practitioners so I think there is not only the internal support but there’s the external… telling others there is actually a group of us, there is a resource here, I’m not just a lone voice in this area. So I think it is making practitioners available to share ideas of best practice and work together in the area, that’s where I would be. We can learn from each other.
If you are having challenges it’s great to be able to call out to some of the experienced practitioners and probably know you are not alone, it’s been done before and they will have some ideas to help you through.
It would be quite good to get some best practice examples of impact assessment in New Zealand, to get that up on to the website, describing a really good example or where there have been some really good outcomes that have been achieved through implementing good practice. And maybe some comparisons with other countries as well. It is quite nice to get together socially as well, I know the planning institute does it a lot.
It would be quite good to be quite open to new ideas, you have the purists, but you need all sorts, and I think it is about being receptive to new ideas as much as respectful to those who have the experience as they have been the ground breakers in the past, but you know there are some new ideas and things coming in and so it is being open to that as well.
I think it’s about, it’s just having that core body of practitioners there that are really passionate about what they do, working together, sharing best practice and bringing on some of the younger members or less experienced members of the profession, encouraging them to get on board too because that way you can influence others that we work with, our clients or colleagues.
I think some good training in impact assessment would be valuable. Di Buchan and James Baines, under EIANZ did a really really good, two-day course on doing social impact assessment and I think [NZAIA] could be offering more of those courses. That way you could say you are have had formal training in impact assessment, some sort of accreditation. That adds a lot of robustness to the process and gives it a bit of kudos as well … we do that for engagement, you become a sort of certified engagement practitioner, and you could easily do a similar thing here as well, think about that. Maybe we could maybe connect with IAP2, the Institute of Public Participation as that is really best practice about public engagement, which I see is an important part of a robust impact assessment process.